Access to Pastoral Lease

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Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Nightjar on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 2:32 pm

Found this old (1990) photo of two of my mates keeping warm in an abandoned prospectors shack.
We dropped into Black Flag Station (Nth of Kalgoorlie) and introduced ourselves to the manager. During the course of the conversation he commented that we must be camping out going by what we had on our trailer. We said that was correct tents & swags.
He walked to his vehicle and said, "Follow me."
He took us to this shack and said if we kicked the spiders out we were welcome to stay there. We did just that and got the fire roaring.
And what a welcome this was it was in November but the day temperature never got over 14°C, as a matter of fact it snowed on the Porongurup's that week.
He the manager and nearby mine geos dropped in a couple of evenings and we had a beer or three. While they were there we asked how much gold would be in each road train that rumbled past every 20 minutes/24hours/day.
One of the geo's said there was approx $20K of gold in each load or $1.5million/day was rolling past.
Anyway this is just one example of how prospectors/mining companies and Pastoralists can work in harmony.















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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by mada on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 3:15 pm

Nice one Peter I have done similar with the pastoral lease holders I visit. I have no need for camping gear etc as I use the spare caravan on site, have 24 hour power, hot showers, internet if I need it, home cooked meals if I want (I contribute to costs as required) and if need help out around the station and always bring stuff up from Perth for them. Its a great relationship and proud to call them friends.

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Wedgetail on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 5:01 pm

Unfortunately things have changed a lot over the last 30 years and not for the better either. There are now so many people out there with some of those not giving a toss about where they go or whose toes they tread on, that pastoral stations (PLH) and mining tenement holders have reached breaking point.

I talk regularly with the head of the PGA and campaigns are being planned to put their rights ahead of ours. That's the future if we don't stop illegal prospecting and poor behaviour. No good blaming them. They're looking after their interests. They have the ear of the powerful landholder and green lobbyists. On the other hand, the tenement holders are seeking prosecutions for gold stealing etc. The early signs of a shite fight are starting to show.

I started prospecting back in 1983 and there was nobody out there "except me and another idiot between Kalgoorlie and Darwin"! Now, there's thousands of "bucket listers" with latest Landcruisers and 30 foot Bushtrackers. The Greenies are gathering ammo based on that and that's not good.

W


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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Young Simmo on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 8:03 pm

Yes Wedgetail and I recently said, "but what I am sure of is some idiot sitting in an air conditioned office down in St Georges Tce, can have an enormous amount of gold nuggets tied up out in the bush, so I can't go and find it. He has no intention of ever finding it himself, and because of sheer greed he stops me from finding it. One day you will need a Miners Right to go for a dip at Scarborough beach".
There has to be a better way
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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Wedgetail on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 6:42 pm

Simmo,

The strange thing is that it's not the "West Perth Brigade" that are ACTIVELY taking action on illegal prospecting. They don't really care unless they catch you. The people that are getting very active are the small occupational miners that have leases and do it to make a living. No different to a tradie, a teacher or a nurse. They pay rates, rent and fees for those leases only to see guys walking in, lifting the gold and shooting thru. I've always had a Golden Rule,,,,"the companies are fair game, but leave the private leaseholders alone".

It's those small miner guys that are now becoming the enemy of the hobby detectorists. If this illegal stuff isn't stopped there will soon be lobbyists from the Pastoral side and the "real rent payers - the occupational leaseholders" that could manage to get a ban on recreational operators. That would be tragedy but unless people stop being greedy, uncaring and foolhardy, it could go that way. It could go that way because the small miners have the legal rights on their side, whereas - how can an illegal prospector complain to anyone that he has a problem with a legal miner? It's never gonna happen. Those that pay get the oil, those that don't pay get ignored.

In my position I get these discussions from APLA members regularly and often. Trust me, this is gonna get worse before it gets better.


Last edited by Wedgetail on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : second thought additions)

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Bignuggs on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 7:47 pm

We have GPS software available to ensure we don't go where we shouldn't but it only takes a few bad apples to stuff it for everyone.
I can understand why PLH's padlock gates and why the small lease holders are getting upset about it but we shouldn't all get tarred with the same brush.
I'm sure there are more people who do the right thing compared to those who don't so, what can we do to help keep ourselves in the game.
Just my opinion.

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by AussieAU on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 8:28 pm

and putting up a list of companies that give out permissions on the APLA news letter seems to have only p*ssed of those same companies big time as the office staff got swamped with requests and now the same companies are refusing all requests Mad

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by pilko on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 6:09 am

Hi AussieAu....your right....I actually saw the positive in this in that at least people were trying to go about things the right way....then I see the negative side of it where people lob into a goldfields town and ask 'where can I go swinging mate?"...not good enough.....these idiots will wind up with some sort of general permissions area and that is where you will all wind up. For what it's worth I don't want to see that either. THE problem is people do no research....have no idea....come to a goldfields town and expect to be able to go somewhere the next day to find gold. That is why the companies were swamped and finally said no.

H Bignugs....good question mate....it's only my opinion....but any change is ONLY going to come from within the ranks of prospectors. It needs prospectors to stand up and basically say 'no' to their mates prospecting illegally....to take photo's and evidence and lodge it with the Gold squad in kalgoorlie when they see people prospecting where they shouldn't.... to take photo's and gather evidence and lodge with Gold squad if you come across people using machinary illegally..and to take photo's and gather evidence and lodge complaints when pastoralists or other 'stakeolders' are acting like tossers. The big question is....do we really want to be the "police" of the bush...and the answer is a definate no thanks....I'm here to find gold and put food on the table. But the reality is...we are out here...no-one else is.....and if we don't stand up and fight for our hobby/jobs then no-one else is going to. Just my thoughts.

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Chiv on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 6:43 am

we use to lock up padocks when I was in the plh game, we knew all the lease holders, they use to come to homestead and drop of a papper , bread, milk. They all knew that they get a key which they dropped of when they left, It worked both ways as some of the camps where quite well set up and it stopped theft. lock gates can be a pain in the ass as its more crap to do but like we all know it only take 1 to wreck it for every one.
Piko right in that you do have to do a fair bit of your own cop work and be methodical about how you record your evidence, its hard to get a conviction on anyone unless your prepared to go through the whole process with the GS. most people are real jumpy when they doing the wrong thing a couple of right placed words and they usually get the wind up them self and move on

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Wedgetail on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 9:25 am

Chiv wrote:we use to lock up padocks when I was in the plh game, we knew all the lease holders, they use to come to homestead and drop of a papper , bread, milk. They all knew that they get a key which they dropped of when they left, It worked both ways as some of the camps where quite well set up and it stopped theft. lock gates can be a pain in the ass as its more crap to do but like we all know it only take 1 to wreck it for every one.
Piko right in that you do have to do a fair bit of your own cop work and be methodical about how you record your evidence, its hard to get a conviction on anyone unless your prepared to go through the whole process with the GS. most people are real jumpy when they doing the wrong thing a couple of right placed words and they usually get the wind up them self and move on

Well said, Chiv, I remember the "good old days" as well. But not all PLHs were so inclined, some were antagonistic even 30 years ago. But as you say, the illegals often move on when challenged. The next question is obviously, "But do they simply move on to another spot and start again"? Can't win?

But we have to win or we could end up in "Fossicking Areas" such as the one up in Marble Bar. That was started by Marble Bar locals to attract tourists and keep people off granted tenements. That was years ago but there is now huge pushes from green lobbies to revitalise the outback - see below for one example and note the words "private conservation" which shows the true intent. If these groups team up with PLHs and get the ear of Government, how long will recreational prospecting last? Not long  - and welcome to the world of NSW and Victoria, nowhere to go worth going. So if the illegals keep at it and are unlikely ever to obey the rules, continue to swamp the goldfeilds, continue to piss off the PLHs etc,etc that all adds to the arguments of the green groups that we are irresponsible and not to be considered in any future arrangements. Then? - behave like a feral, get treated like a feral and then RIP recreational detecting.

The extract below is from an email that was sent to me by an APLA member. I will be writing to the Minister Saffioti on behalf of prospectors and miners.

A_second_chance_for_our_Outback....jpg

Hi James,

Yesterday we reached a major milestone which gives our Outback a fantastic second chance.

For years we’ve been working hard to change WA’s antiquated laws which have stopped the emergence of new, sustainable industries in our Outback – enterprises such as carbon farming, tourism and private conservation which support both people and nature.

But the new WA government has been a mystery on this issue. Would they finish the biggest Outback reforms in over a century that we convinced the previous government to start?

Yesterday WA Minister Rita Saffioti answered this critical question, telling ABC radio that she is “very keen” for rangelands reform to deliver for the Outback.

This is excellent news and Rita needs to know that we’re right behind her.

Please help thank her for this big first step. Send an automatic ‘thank you’ message here (make sure you add your name and suburb at the end). Even better, take a moment to edit the message and say thank you in your own words.

Minister Saffioti gave a short timeframe of 6-12 months, but even in this brief period it’s easy for Government to get distracted or go off the rails. Over coming months we’ll need your help to make sure they deliver. But in the meantime saying ‘thanks’ seems like the right thing to do now.

Imagine if we succeed! The outcomes would be remarkable, from the Kimberley to the Nullarbor, bringing about healthier landscapes and more prosperous Outback families, and helping safeguard the things that make WA so special.

The next few months are so important for our Outback that we’re expanding our team. If you’re interested in working for our Outback, have a look at the job outline here.

This week’s announcement is the first real sign that our new government is listening to Western Australians like you who care about the Outback.

Send a thank you message today and let’s make sure they keep listening!

Thanks,
David

David Mackenzie
Director, Partnership for the Outback
OurOutbackOurStory.org.au


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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Nightjar on Thu 15 Jun 2017, 7:39 am

Wedgetail wrote:
David MacKenzie - Imagine if we succeed! The outcomes would be remarkable, from the Kimberley to the Nullarbor, bringing about healthier landscapes and more prosperous Outback families, and helping safeguard the things that make WA so special.
David Mackenzie
Director, Partnership for the Outback
OurOutbackOurStory.org.au




Mr MacKenzie should get out of his office and see what is really happening with their so called "remarkable recovery."
With the removal of thousands of windmills the wild dogs & feral goats move on or die.
Where do they move too?
Adjoining PL's where Mr & Mrs PLH are struggling to make a living after giving up on the animal that Australia rode on for decades, sheep.
If Mr MacKenzie took a drive out there back then he would have seen a thriving industry.
Today the once lone ranger wild dog has joined up in packs and now harass cattle.
Sheep only ever trimmed the flora to head height, actually promoting growth with the next rains.
Feral goats stand on their back legs and destroy most flora.
It will be a sorry day when all the PL's are shut down and the wild dogs then migrate into the adjoining sheep & wheat farming areas.

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Wedgetail on Thu 15 Jun 2017, 10:56 am

Peter,

All that you say above is known to us and the PLHs. That's why the whole of the Pastoral Industry rose up against the Nationals, Terry Redman when he introduce his "Rangelands Reform Bill" about 18 months ago. However, we need to to write to the current Lands Minister, Rita Saffioti about our concerns as prospectors. The PGA can take of itself, it has money and staff. Whereas APLA has just a a couple of people that get involved and not much money.

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Flouro on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 1:59 pm

Hi All,

Just a bit of a warning for those working in the Tuckanarra/ karbar area, there is a new manager this year and he's a fruitcake...we had james a few years before and he would kick everyone off the plh..no excuses, this new guy doesn't care who's mining lease it is, this is his lease and you have to get permission, gave us an hour and a half to pack up and leave with ranting and raving...said he would get the gold police who he said were just up the road and notify the police

I said that we as prospectors have as much right as you to be here, we have permission by the lease holder and we have miners rights which last a lifetime , we also spoke to the then plh late last year and he said no worries just keep out of my immediate back yard...all good we thought

The guy left such a bad taste in our mouths that we packed up and got off his lease, so we warned my brother to be wary of this guy and to go to the now Karbar homestead(they renamed the Tuckanarra hsd, that's foreign ownership for you)and let him know of your intensions, he said no...you've got a dog, so they had a little talk about baits and where they are put etc...my brother said he was going to go out mindoolah way and this peanuckle says that's anneans plh so I will ring and tell him your on your way, me brother says its nowhere near annean station and got in his car and drove off towards mindoolah

This nutter was following him up the road so me brother stopped the car and got out, he said he will ring up beebyn's plh and let him know your on your way

To top all this off he has a dog himself, go figger

Also the beebyn plh wants a carton of beer every time you are on his plh's, thyis guy said to me nd the missus, also to my brother he left a written message to come the hstd and bring some beer, leave us a carton or piss off my lease

We don't need these kind of idiot's running plh's, just my opinion

Ron,Sherri and Yoda

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by BIG GEM on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 8:29 pm

Hi Ron, Sherrie, many thanks for warning. Some five or six years ago, one of the previous managers was so bad that people in Cue named him "Osama Bin Laden". Maybe he has returned to haunt us prospectors.  Prospector be aware!  

Bob

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Flouro on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 1:41 pm

Hi Big Gem,

No worries, hopefully someone can break the ice with him as so far he is unapproachable

James Pitman is the guy your referring to and he was one of our bosses at Cue...say no more..

It gets to the point where these people will be avoided at all costs and then the shite really hits the fan, there should be room for everyone

Ron

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Wedgetail on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 1:48 pm

Flouro and others,

I sympathise with what's happening again at Tuckanarra and Beebyn. I've seen it and lived it for 35 years across most of WA and I've rarely met a PLH that understands where he sits in the legal pecking order. As APLA President I get a few of these every year and we often get win after contacting the PLH and reading his horoscope for him. Are you an APLA member? We resolved one incident at Murrin Murrin just a few weeks ago.

Having a swinging whinge on forums won't fix the issue. PLH's don't read these. The best way is to lodge a formal complaint with the DMP Inspectorate, details below. Provide dates, times, witnesses and what happened. It's unlikely to end up in court as the Inspectors usually just front up at his station, show him the Mining Act and things change a fair bit.

But when confronted by PLHs, don't move and don't back down. If you move then the PLH has bluffed you out of your rights. Go immediately to nearest police station and DMP office (in your case that'll be Meekatharra) and make a report of harrassment whilst going about your lawful business.

Use the tools that you have and don't back down. You must know the Mining Act. I can send anyone an email with the relevant parts of the Act if required. PM me.

DMP Inspector contacts are:

Kevin Mancini -

Lead Investigator - Compliance Section

Investigation Services Branch

Dept. Mines and Petroleum

0427 475 846



Peter Roelfs -

Peter Roelofs | Senior Investigations Officer
Investigation Services, Strategic Policy

Department of Mines and Petroleum

100 Plain Street East Perth WA 6004

Tel: +61 8 9222 3701 | Mob: 0429 374 133 |
www.dmp.wa.gov.au

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by martinjsto on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 4:44 pm

Hi fluro. I was at cue for the week around the end of may this year  and wanted to detect NW of tuckanurra/ karbar following the track for about 4km from the old airstrip. I dropped in to let them know of my activities and was greeted by the manager.
He wasnt polite at all telling me i will not have access unless he gives it to me and anyone trespassing will be reported to the police and that I needed to ask him not tell where i will be active. Also no access with a firearm or dogs. I didnt buy in to an all out war with him about my rights but respectfully stated my rights under the mining act and explained to him in detail of the leases i could legally detect on. Once he understood i knew and was within my rights he settled down and became  reasonable.  So in most cases but not all, taking the time to contact the PLH is in your favour.

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Re: Access to Pastoral Lease

Post by Moneybox on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 7:10 pm

We spent a few very pleasant days with the Barry and Rhonda from Karbar in May. We just walked over from the intersection and said G'Day. From there on it went well. We were directed to where we were likely to find old bottles and relics and travelled across the station with them checking windmills and wells and generally enjoying ourselves.
Anean was a little different. We were welcomed on to the station by Kim without knowing that he was in his last days there. Then we had a rude introduction to the new guy (Bob & Deb I think) when he let off a shot from the rifle before he even introduced himself. I didn't back down but I wasn't rude to him either. It was a bit difficult getting a word in between his shouting to start with but in the end he said "Stay as long as you like but call me first next time". He even dropped by a couple of days latter for a chat while he had the big boss sitting in the Patrol beside him.

Overall we left quite happy with the relationship we'd formed with these guys.

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