Dry blower use

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Dry blower use

Post by mada on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:16 pm

Hi all after much questioning around the traps and reading lots about what you can and can't do by way of a dry blower, I decided to call the Perth DMP.

Use under a miners right:

I questioned what is considered as mechanical.

The answer I got what this. The dry blower itself is not mechanical movement (static) however the propulsion/drive method is. So anything electrical or mechanical type blower is not allowed under a miners right, which is fair enough and I knew this. So "What about a manual crank handle bellows type" the answer I got was so long as its not electric or gas powered drive then no problem.

Good enough for me.

Regards
Rob

mada


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by au-fever on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 6:39 am

In all honesty its a ridiculous ruling and you have to wonder why they could not have come up with some better method of explaining what you can and cant use, we all understand that the reason they don't want us using big machinery is pretty obvious and the implications of the damage that can be caused is plain to see in a lot of the places we go to, but I have never been able to understand why they wont allow small hand operated rotary hammers and small powered dry blowers as small scale operations cause very little damage if managed correctly.

The only reason I would use a small hammer is to save my knuckles and time when extracting gold from bedrock/calcrete or whatever and would not even consider it an effective tool for any extended use but just there for that odd occasion, its not like you are going to be digging a massive big hole with it, so I cant see any obvious reason why they wont allow it, even if they allowed it but restricted the size and output of what can and cant be used would be fairer than the way the rule is at the moment.

When they make rules and regulations without properly considering what happens in the real world then they just encourage people to break the rules anyway as we have all seen areas scraped and turned over illegally, people will still take and use these mechanical tools anyway, the ridiculous thing is that they probably brought in all these rules and regulations after much of the damage was already done in the 80's talk about closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

Maybe its time prospectors lobby the DMP to have their rules brought out of the dark ages and into the 21st century

au-fever


au-fever


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by mada on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 9:21 am

Totally agree with you and your quite right with regards to what happened in the 80's etc. I am disgusted at what I see, fenced off areas with gaping holes in the ground held under mining leases for the next 20 years. It does nothing for anyone and if anything a hazard. Its no wonder the environmentalists get a does of the sh#ts, and to be honest who can blame them.

The use of dry blowers goes back to the early days and in my eyes using using a air delivery system should not be an issue, however they could put a restriction on the size of the dry blower say Keenes 140. Anything larger than that then you need your own lease and POW. Same could apply as you mentioned say Max drill size 1000W. If the rules are clear and layed out everyone would be on the same page. The mining act was written long ago with the odd change here and there but so much has changed since. Is there any restriction on Exploration regarding sophisticated equipment? of course not its a free for all, is there any restriction on how may Exploration leases one can have of course not. These guys just chop and change leases among them selves to tie up land and prevent other from accessing it. For most of them its tax right-off and another form of the real estate game.

However small scale is a totally different issue. the small blokes dont have the time and resources to cause great damaged to environment, and I can understand why some of the rules exist (cant totally get rid of the cowboys out there) but these days with new tech there are lots of eyes out there so convicting cowboys one would imagine would be much easier.

While the mining act is relatively clear the grey area is long and wide.

In the fishing tackle industry we lobby long and hard to ensure we still get to go fishing, the only restrictions is mostly bag limits and the odd no go zone. If prospectors dont keep pushing back we will loose out in the end.

mada


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by pilko on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 12:15 pm

Here I go again sounding like a broken record................

There is no grey area....anything other than hand held tools(powered) is illegal mining and subject to a $150 000.00 fine for individuals and 300k for companies.

The reason why there are large open pits that are still open is that the company has paid for the privilege.

The only grey area is the use of metal detectors as they are battery powered.....at this stage it is still ok.

People know and break the rules because they are thieves....no grey area there either. People know the rules and they break them.

If you think that people are realestating then the 'rules' are in place within the Mining Act for you to challenge the tenement holder and plaint them in the wardens court. You also have the option of getting involved with APLA and raising your concerns and try to make changes where appropriate.

The rules are cleared and layed out...but people break them anyway.


pilko


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by pilko on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 6:55 am

No responses.

Just to put you offside a bit more.....don't forget that with your WA Miners Right you can attempt to aquire the ground, keep the ground, and work the ground.

It takes some skill and some money...but you can use your mechanical dryblowers. It will take some of you from being a hobby detectorist to actually being a prospector.

pilko


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by Jack-Tar on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 8:43 am

Hi pilko,

Just after some clarification as I haven't read the act for some time, are you saying that in recent times the act has been reviewed and now states that the use of a battery powered hand tool is not to be used?
Given the fact the these rules were introduced when there were not any battery powered hand tools that could do the job. If there is no such definition to battery powered hand tools then I would suggest that some people may view this as a grey area. Me on the other hand would not consider it a grey area as they are in fact hand tools. As I say I am only after some clarification and not trying to start a big shite fight. Even the officials when asked for clarification in the past have been reluctant to give a definition.

Craig

Jack-Tar


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by pilko on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 8:57 am

Hi Craig...not trying to pick a fight either mate.

Short answer is write to the registrar in Perth and ask the question. I really encourage you to do that. Don't worry about calling as it has to be in writing and get the buggers to commit. Mining Act is seldom changed but the Regulations are regularly changed....and this is where the problems occur. You can't read the Mining Act without reading it's Regulatlions. I know how I interpret the ACt etc but it's a real smart thing to do in getting the DMP to state in writing what the rules are....don't forget that you may not like the answer....there are some parts of the act that would all but stop prospecting dead in it's tracks but it's 'ignored' by the powers that be....and no...I won't comment further on that.

When you do get an answer back...chuck it up here for all to read...well done if you do.

pilko


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by mada on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 6:28 pm

Tony not about putting anyone off side, I just have difficulty as mentioned elsewhere here that sometimes when questions are asked the DMP can not give definitive answer, each person will give you a different answer. Your suggestion to put it in writing would be the correct way. Be pretty hard to dispute "he said/she said" if ever challenged.

I hope to oneday have my own lease, sooner rather than later once favourable ground is found, and apart from panning, dry blowering etc can help speed that process up.

A lot of the open pits date back to the 80's etc and companies have since gone bust and walked away.Other companies have then come along and taken up the lease (because they can) yes they pay for that privilege. Will they ever get worked again? who knows but while they remain locked up as say care and maintenance, one would love the opportunity to swing a detector around, (excluding the pit itself) cause that would be straight out dangerous..

Anyway one day I hope to be a small time miner.

mada


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by Jack-Tar on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 6:52 pm

From memory didn't Cliff  do exactly that?  Cliff I thought you asked the powers that be for the definition. I may be wrong.

Craig

Jack-Tar


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by Nightjar on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 8:23 pm

au-fever wrote:In all honesty its a ridiculous ruling and you have to wonder why they could not have come up with some better method of explaining what you can and cant use, we all understand that the reason they don't want us using big machinery is pretty obvious and the implications of the damage that can be caused is plain to see in a lot of the places we go to, but I have never been able to understand why they wont allow small hand operated rotary hammers and small powered dry blowers as small scale operations cause very little damage if managed correctly.

au-fever


Good point au-fever,
Has anyone ever read/heard or experienced being prosecuted by the DMP for using as what you suggest?
If you hand feed, ie; use a shovel to feed a small dry blower the chances of prosecution are about the same as finding another "golden eagle."
The small scrape you remove with your shovel will be over grown after the next rains. As a matter of fact it has already been proven that a small amount of ground disturbance actually promotes regrowth. (Contact Murdoch University Environmental if you wish to challenge this)
It's the cowboys running around with their backhoes/bulldozers/ front end loaders that are ruining it for we hobbyists.


_________________
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Peter

 
     
"Aging seems to be the only available way to live a long life."

Nightjar


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by pilko on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 8:52 pm

Hi Mada, then if you have ground you want to prospect then learn how to approach the companies/leaseholders and often you will get a go...not always...but that's life.
Good on you for having a dream mate...anything I can do to help (other than a location!) feel free to give me a call and I will always do what I can to help out.

Peter...you right in that there is almost a zero chance of getting caught. The DMP can and will do nothing to try and stop what's going on. Does it matter..well yes actually. I'll give you one example...a person has been raiding one of my leases for two years that I know of. The figure I have is half a kilo of gold. He knew where he was and what he was doing. Believe it or not Peter I'm actually a fairly easy going bloke....untill someone poops on me. Evidence was collected and he is now facing charges from the gold squad. Point being that MANY private leaseholders are so p*ssed off with the attitude of some people that we/they have had enough.When you hear the 'it's only a few grams'line again and again from these thieves then I start to arc up. There are a few people running around with machinary but they are not the hobbyists real problem as you suggest...it's the other hobbyists. I still say the majority do the right thing but an increasing percentage are going where they want with no regard and it's these thieves that will close down the goldfields to you guy's. The DMP will do nothing about it, the change (if there is to be one) can only come from other prospectors saying...no go mate. All I can do is call on other prospectors to call bulldust on these people and tell 'em they are wrong. So does it matter if you use a dryblower with a motor...not from an environmental point of view....but it's against the law (as I understand it) and therefore it's wrong. After all...integrity is what actions we take when others are not looking.

pilko


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by mada on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 11:01 pm

Hi Tony thanks for the offer and yes should I ever need to ask a question I will always value your opinion, after all you're the kind of guy doing the hard yards and we all learn from it.

Thankfully all my efforts in locating land is mostly of open land. However I do swing a detector on pending ground and gold is very limited, I believe there is a lot of overburden in this area. The reason I persist where i visit is that the only foot prints and tyre marks are mostly mine. Pretty much virgin ground everywhere and that's suits me a to T. I wanted to prove to myself there was gold here and did so within 10 minutes of swinging a machine. ok I have not picked a lot up but I also believe its only matter of time (hoping) I come across something. All the ingredients are there but a sharper set of eyes would be nice. 500,000 acres is a lot of area to cover so I travel a lot looking for likely spots. I could be wasting my time I dont know, but I am enjoying the hunt lol.

mada


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by pilko on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 7:33 am

that's it mate...it's a treasure hunt!!

pilko


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by Nightjar on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 8:08 am

Yes, there are hobbyists doing the wrong thing. Some years back I received a phone call from Herman ?, head honcho back then, of the GSU.
He advised me that a father & son team were raiding our PL and they were endeavouring to corral them. Unfortunately their plan became unstuck or should I say stuck due to very heavy rain in the area preventing any vehicle movement.
The long & short of it a GSU member used to pass by our shack periodically and leave a calling card in the door.
There are those who show know shame, even camping on our lease, using our fire & collected firewood, throwing their bottles & cans in there and leaving their s**t behind, literally, crapping on the ground within a few metres of the camp.
One trip to our camp we came across a group with three caravans (expensive ones with near new Tojos) camped on another private lease and they had obviously been there for some time. We stopped and advised them they were on a private lease. One woman was spokesperson who had a tongue that would make a sailor blush, told us they were only camping and we couldn't stop them. We advised her between her screeching that the lease holder would be arriving soon. We drove bye where they were camped later in the day and they had gone. We returned with our wood trailer and picked up multiple cartons of empties, food cans etc etc. And once again this mob had crapped without burying anything, dunny paper stuck in surrounding trees.
Having said all this, fortunately these lowlifes only make up a very small percentage of hobbyists.


_________________
Good luck & safe travels
Peter

 
     
"Aging seems to be the only available way to live a long life."

Nightjar


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by au-fever on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 4:30 am

pilko wrote:Here I go again sounding like a broken record................

There is no grey area....anything other than hand held tools(powered) is illegal mining and subject to a $150 000.00 fine for individuals and 300k for companies.

The reason why there are large open pits that are still open is that the company has paid for the privilege.

The only grey area is the use of metal detectors as they are battery powered.....at this stage it is still ok.

People know and break the rules because they are thieves....no grey area there either. People know the rules and they break them.

If you think that people are realestating then the 'rules' are in place within the Mining Act for you to challenge the tenement holder and plaint them in the wardens court. You also have the option of getting involved with APLA and raising your concerns and try to make changes where appropriate.

The rules are cleared and layed out...but people break them anyway.





I can tell you from experience and what I have seen with my own eyes during the 30 odd years I have been detecting that some of the worst damage to the land and acts of pure greed have been perpetrated by so called pillars of the prospecting community that were using heavy machinery illegally, well known and supposedly honest lease holders, who at the same time spend far too much time trying to chase others out of areas that they have no legal right to work themselves, even stooping to threats of violence and intimidation towards people who were actually there within their rights and legally, I will never be convinced that all lease holders are honest and doing the right thing, some are and I will always do the right thing by them and stick to the rules but the ones I know for sure who are not are fair game in my opinion, and deserve what they get.

Most of us who detect only want a few nuggets and are not interested in using heavy machinery, but there are times when the use of a small rotary hammer would just make recovery of a nugget a little quicker and save the loss of some bark from the knuckles and it would be nice to be able to do some small scale dry blowing for a change of pace as well, as I would agree that we should under a miners right only be able to use a shovel and pick to break the ground but if the dry blower was battery or small motored powered that would be of no real threat to the environment.

I have worked patches and dug dozens of holes but even after carefully back filling all the holes it is still plainly obvious at the time that someone has been there, I do this firstly to not advertise the patch I have found but make sure that the vegetation if any will recover, but a couple of seasons later in a few spots you would be hard pressed to know anyone had been there at all, small holes like detector holes here and there are of no threat to the environment, in fact when an area is rehabilitated groves are cut to catch seed and over time they collapse and the rain does the rest, detector holes will do the same thing, the turned over earth is not the problem the real problem is when the area is scraped to the bedrock and there is not topsoil left for the seeds to grow in, there are hundreds of acres of ground that has been left barren by so called legal operations.

It just seems to me that there is more focus and eyes on the hobby prospectors trying to ensure that we are doing the right thing, but there are ass....s on both sides of the fence that's for certain.

au-fever




au-fever


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by pilko on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 6:19 am

Hi Au-fever....I agree with much of what you have to say. I have said all along that prospectors need to know their rights and obligations as they are very likely to be fronted in the bush these day's. This can be from idiot pastoralists and/or idiot prospectors...if people know where they stand then they can decide how tall they want to stand.....if they are prospecting illegally then they have almost no rights. I agree with your second para as well.except the part about "most of us who detect only want a few nuggets....." we all want the retirement nugget!! I don't have a problem with a motorised dry blower or a jackhammer...but at the moment it's against the law....why not get involved in APLA...convince the executive that the law needs to change and start lobbying for that change.

I also hate people who push illegally. Lisa and I spend a lot of money doing it the right way and these pricks just come in and raid patches and seldom rehab. Problem is, us prospectors that are on the ground and seeing these things going on won't stand up...take photo's and make reports to the police. WE see the things going on but WE "just want to find a few nuggets" ...fact is the authorities cannot do anything unless prospectors supply them with hard evidence. Maybe this is the real problem???..a lot of people prospecting are retired and the mindset generally seems to be "I don't want the hassles anymore"...this is just a guess but I reckon their may be something in it.

As for the last bit....I reckon filling in dig holes is a load of crap. There are more things digging holes out here than all the prospectors times ten...and then some! It's about trying not to telegraph your patches...it achieves the same goal in the end but I reckon filling in holes from an enviro POV is rubbish. As far as bulldozing goes...if I had my way I would bulldoze the entire goldfields! Without exception, every pushing job I have made and rehabbed has performed better than the surrounding country. There are millions of years of seedbank in the dirt and once you 'tickle' it up, the water can penetrate and away she goes. Everytime I put the blade in the dirt I have a smile on my face because the closet environmentalist in me knows I'm doing the right thing by the country.....that and I get to use machinary that makes noise.

I appreciate your comments and the discussion... I don't have the answers....but I see things going on around me and can also see where things will wind up one day....that's why I say my piece....happy to be wrong....I often am.

pilko


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by Stingray on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 8:27 pm

Hi Mada, it seems like you are interested in dry blowers from the point of view of sampling/loaming. If that's the case it helps to be light and portable and it only needs to be able to process a big enough sample to give you some colours. The whole issue of motorised dry blowers only come into play if you want to get grams out of it instead and all the rules apply as others have clearly set out above.

I have fixed up an old petro driven gold wizard for more serious sampling/trials under a POW, but for sampling/loaming I made a little hand operated bellows dry blower to help concentrate material. Works well, I tried it out on a small bar that I hand found gold on and couldn't believe the fineness of the gold it found amongst the larger specks.

http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Stingray_gold/library/hand%20operated%20dry%20blower

It is very light and dismantled it pretty much fits in a 20 L bucket + 4 wooden legs. When you clean up you get maybe a litre of concentrate which is easily bagged and carried out for panning at camp. About 2/3 of a 20L bucket of dirt is about 20kg. It would take a lot of time and water to pan that off.

If you are interested PM me and I can give you more info etc.


Stingray

Stingray


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by mada on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:34 pm

Hi stingray yes that what I am after, was looking at later getting the Keenes Mighty Midget which is a bellows hand crank job (yes it has a 12v motor with it) but wasn't interested in breaking the rules.

The one you made looks like what I am after so i will send you a PM.

Thanks
Rob

mada


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by Wedgetail on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 9:10 am

The use of metal detectors under the terms of the Act and the Regs was the subject of a lot of input and argument by APLA to the DMP about 15 years ago. At the Mining Industry Liaison Committee (MILC) meetings at the time companies were querying whether the detector was a "powered machine", albeit "handheld". It was obvious what way the companies wanted this decision to go. APLA fought the issue and finally, despite the wording in the Act/Regs, the metal detector was accepted as "hand held un-mechanised" and it's now legal to use one under the Act. Obviously, "where you use it" is another matter!

However, whilst some on here may think that a tiny battery powered dryblower is OK to use, I'm afraid that it is not the case. A lot of the Act is open to "legal interpretation" and I see this often when I'm in the DMP Exec meetings with the lawyers. In the case of battery powered dryblowers - it's illegal because it's not hand-powered. However and but,,,,,the fact that its powered is only one matter, the other "vexing issues" is that you may be on someone else's granted lease when using said dryblower! So you have now breached the act TWICE@ Firstly, using mechanised equipment is breaching the Environmental Protection Act, even though you may only be using a shovel you have no Programme of Works to back up the use of mechanisation! You can't have a Programme of Works on a lease that you don't own or don't have a deal with the owner. A POW is mandatory for any mechanised ground disturbance - other than detecting. Secondly, you are also "illegal mining" as you are mining/prospecting on someone else's ground without permission OR you are using this "mechanised equipment" on Vacant Crown Land. Even that latter one is also illegal.

These things I'm saying here are the STRICT interpretations of the Mining Act and the EPA Act and breaches could be actioned against you but it'd be unlikely that a case be taken against a first offender. But if a tenement holder had the evidence, such videos or witnesses and wanted to force the authorities to take the case to court, then you'd be gone for even a small breach as above.

So metal detector is OK on VCL or tenement with permission but a dryblower is not.

Complicated eh!


Last edited by Wedgetail on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling etc)

_________________
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Re: Dry blower use

Post by mada on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:33 pm

Thanks for the clarification Wedgetail.

Kind of find it ironic that the use of a metal detector was a subject of debate when you consider that mining companies are only interested in the deep major deposits and have no interest in the surface stuff. If they were, then places such as Karratha would had it pants stripped off.

So from what I read from the above is that the POW is the overriding factor here regarding the use of a dry blower.

Thanks again

mada


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by pilko on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 1:20 pm

Hi Mada, it's a misconception that mining companies are not interested in the 'surface stuff'. There is a quote from Sam Cash...."the best indication of a lot of gold, is a little gold' The alluvials may not be economic for a company to mine but it may very well tell them where to look..take Regis Resources as an example. This is a big problem with metal detectors...many of the surface signs are removed and so no-one knows that there is a major deposit underneath.

pilko


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by mada on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 2:17 pm

Yes your right Tony kind of goes around in circles hey, and the reason why the 40E system exists and I have no problem letting the leaseholders know of anything important.
But at the same time they have access to a lot of resources such as magnetics, SG'S, imagery and so on which of course is available publicly.

I guess at the end of the day if the mining companies and prospectors work closer together then it would be a win win for all not a division.

And lets not forget how this country was built, as well know its was prospectors who first found it and prospered, then mining companies were formed and the country boomed.

Working together would be my first preference.

mada


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by hippyty on Fri 23 Jun 2017, 9:50 pm

its not electric or fuel powered I'm sure you could adapt it to the application?

https://youtu.be/QFeR8Qlkrfg

hippyty


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by mada on Fri 23 Jun 2017, 11:07 pm

yep I sure it could be adapted to suit.

mada


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Re: Dry blower use

Post by pilko Yesterday at 8:02 am

love it

pilko


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Re: Dry blower use

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