Electric Jackhammers

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Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 3:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

Now this will probably open up a can of worms but might be worth investigating.  After watching madmav and bluedog digging last weekend and seeing some Utube clips of guys with hammer and chisel, it got me thinking about the title of this topic.

Electric hand hammerdrills or small jackhammers are called "Hand Held" tools.  The WA DMP rules for Prospecting also state "Handheld".

Cat, I know you will jump in here and that's good.  I'd like to know what the "True" definition of handheld is under the WA Mining Act.  I think I might send an email to DMP for their interpretation.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by shorty on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 4:06 pm

The current regulations were written in the early days of metal detectors and there were no electric jack hammers (portable) so really it appears that they should be amended to suit newer technologies.
Plus back then men were men and could swing a sledgehammer all day long. :)
Chris

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 4:32 pm

Bignuggs wrote:I agree with what page 11 states in regard to 40E's.  Now that I've got people reading the Mining Act, what does it say about vacant crown land ? Get ya thinking caps on.  I'm not being rude but think outside of the box.  Laws can be challenged as they are always written and worded wrong.
It can't be the same.  I wouldn't dream of screwing it up for everyone but there has to be an allowance somewhere or we are truly losing our rights to the exclusion of big mining.
I should be allowed to use "mechanized or powered" tools on free Crown Land.  I wouldn't do it on granted claims.  
I'll expand on this. I should be allowed to do it on Pending ground.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Guest on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 7:25 pm

I've only just discovered this thread. All I can say is "Good Luck" with trying to get the law changed. I been down that road a very long way and a very long time ago - with and without APLA. I had no success.

I doubt APLA would back it either as they've failed to get a change after many attempts.

Miners Right only = no powered tools.

But leaseholder = Pay to get a lease pegged, then pay the rent, then pay the Shire rates and then get the environmental clearance done under a POW-P, then pay to get the Aboriginal Heritage Survey done, then keep every bugger off yer lease, then and only then can you,,,,,,,,,,,,get yerself a jackhammer!

Simple eh!

Cat

PS - and if you're really stupid, get yerself a bulldozer!!lol! 

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by martinjsto on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 9:52 pm

ok from the DMP:
Rights Of The Holder Of A Miner's Right:
The holder of Miner's Right is authorised under Section 20 of the Mining Act 1978 to carry out the following activities on Crown land not the subject of a mining tenement:

prospect for minerals (including gold);
conduct geological mapping;
conduct tests for minerals;
undertake limited sampling using hand held equipment and to remove samples up to 20 kilograms;
mark out mining tenements;
fossick for rocks, gemstones, etc;
take water and camp for the purposes of prospecting.
Possession of a Miner's Right does not authorise these activities on private land or Reserve land (except where the purpose is a Common, Mining or Public Utility).

from this, on crown land not under exploration  or mining prospecting licence ETC then hand held "equipment" is ok, this is clearly permission to use a hand held jack hammer.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Nosralt on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 10:40 pm

Doesnt Mining Act 1978
Mining Regulations 1981 also state:

Division 3A — Fossicking
[Heading inserted in Gazette 2 Oct 1987 p. 3820.]
74A. Means of fossicking
(1) The holder a miner’s right may fossick by means of hand tools
only.
(2) The holder of a miner’s right shall not fossick by means of a
metal detector, machinery or machine assisted tools, including
vehicle drawn scrapers, graders and similar tools, on any land.
[Regulation 74A inserted in Gazette 20 Oct 1987 p. 3820.]

Outdated and long overdue for a reveiw.


Nosralt


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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 9:26 am

I don't think I should have opened up this can of worms lol! 

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Guest on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 11:14 am

I would like to see the use of wiper snippers brought in for the country that has a lot of spinifex growing in it--

regards
oneday

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 11:32 am

Whats a "wiper" snipper  lol!   or do you mean a "Whipper" snapper or snipper  

I couldn't help myself, I had to say it Very Happy 

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by martinjsto on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 1:25 pm

so what is the difference between fossicking and detecting when it comes to vacant crown land. isnt it my call? i can prospect on vacant crown land or fossick cant I, therefor if I am not fossicking I am not restricted by its regulations but the mining act covering prospecting as quoted above. am I reading this incorrectly or is prospecting on vacant crown land classed only fossicking?
thanks for the clarification.
Martin

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by albo on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 9:54 am

Hi Nosralt,after reading your post ,that does indeed look like to me you can not metal detect on vacant crown land legally .

Metal detecting is not fossicking , that's allways been common knowledge.

Now im sure most of us have trundled into a mines dept country office wa & asked the help of these people where you can detect & they have been great in helping with the no go ML tennements etc & printed out maps of pending ground that's ok on a targeted area you are interested in to go metal detecting after they have been informed of your intentions using a metal detector .

So here we are now, the only legal way to do it, if that's the case ,which looks like it is from what I read in your post -
1/ have your own ML lease or EL, PL
2/have permission to enter a companies lease
3/ Do a tribute deal with a holder
4/not recommended -fly the southern x , shun the rules & do it anyway

If that's how it is Nosralt WA is buggered for detecting .albo.

albo


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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Nosralt on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 3:32 pm

WOW.. didn't think i put that much in my post.

All I was trying to show was how out of date the act and regs are.
Yes we dont fossick we detect / prospect, but there is a grey area there ... if we collect 1 stone that isnt gold, then are we not fossicking with a detector?

This is what they say on the DMP website

Where Can I Prospect / Fossick?
Prospecting can be carried out for all minerals including gold and a metal detector can be used. Prospecting cannot be carried out on a mining tenement unless the tenement holder's consent is obtained and, if a pastoral lease is affected, the pastoralist should be notified.

Prospecting may be carried out on an exploration licence situated on Crown Land for a period of three months where a Section 40E Permit has first been obtained.

Fossicking authorises the collection of mineral specimens (excluding gold and diamonds) for lapidary work or hobby interests. Use of a metal detector is not permitted. In addition the written consent of any mining tenement holder and the pastoralist is required.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 7:22 pm

So if I'm reading this right, Fossicking means picking up rocks and specimens by hand. Done deal on that.
As we use Detectors, we are prospecting.
But I'm buggered if I can work out why we can't detect on vacant crown land that isn't subject to any kind of lease except for maybe a pastoral lease.
More reading and phone calls coming up I think.
time for another beer.


Last edited by Bignuggs on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : more comment)

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Nosralt on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 8:05 pm

Ive been trying to find it myself and it appears to be under section 40 of the Act.

40D. Authorisation under miner’s right
(1) Subject to this Act the holder of a miner’s right is authorised to
do all or any of the following things —
(a) pass and repass over Crown land or conservation land
with such employees and agents, vehicles, machinery
and equipment as may be necessary or expedient for the
purpose of prospecting and marking out any land which
may be made the subject of an application for a mining
tenement;
(b) prospect for minerals and conduct tests for minerals on
available land for the purpose of determining whether to
mark out or apply for a mining tenement in respect of
any part of the land;
(c) extract or remove from available land samples or
specimens of rock, ore or minerals with as little damage
to the surface of the land as possible, in quantities, in
total or on occasions, not exceeding the prescribed
limits;

40A. Terms used
Sect 40A
In this Part —
available land, in relation to a miner’s right, means —
(a) Crown land or conservation land that is not the subject
of a mining tenement; or
(b) Crown land or conservation land that is the subject of an
exploration licence if the holder of the miner’s right
holds a permit under section 40E in respect of the land;

They dont state this on the general informaton web page...

Nosralt


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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by martinjsto on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 8:42 pm

so from this you can prospect on crown land that is available land or free and therefor use a detector.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by albo on Fri 11 Oct 2013, 6:53 pm

Ok 40 D [b] says prospecting , that's metal dectors included .
Well that's ok then , albo.

albo


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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Fri 11 Oct 2013, 7:39 pm

Okie dokie.  so I read it as follows.

40D. Authorisation under miner’s right
(1) (a) pass and repass over Crown land or conservation land
with such employees and agents, vehicles, machinery
and equipment
  eg:  powered hand tools or maybe not

40A. Terms used
Sect 40A
In this Part —
available land, in relation to a miner’s right, means
(a) Crown land or conservation land that is not the subject
of a mining tenement; or

(b) Crown land or conservation land that is the subject of an
exploration licence if the holder of the miner’s right
holds a permit under section 40E in respect of the land;

40D (1) (a) is the sticking point for me.  It only says "Pass and Repass over Crown Land" but 40A contradicts 40D.
But 40D does say "machinery and equipment"

It all seems a bit one sided to me and it ain't on my side   lol!

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Tributer on Thu 17 Oct 2013, 6:11 pm

36 volt hammer with 2 quick charge battery packs and a big crowbar.......are there people out there who don't carry these essential hand tools?
Tributer

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Fri 18 Oct 2013, 10:14 pm

Laws get changed so much they get confused. That's why a good solicitor/barrister is able to challenge the laws and win.
Well, try taking on the WA government. I have been given some advice. Unless you are a multi millionaire, don't do it.
A government, doesn't matter if its State or Federal, has tax payers resources at their disposal to fight you to your death. And they will do everything they can to destroy you. I've been told, they will take everything you own if you lose. Do you want that ??
It's public knowledge so there is nothing in this post that is false.
As far as I'm concerned, the current Laws contradict themselves and we are getting the run around to protect mining companies.
That's WA for ya.
This is just my opinion, research it for ya selves.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Guest on Sun 20 Oct 2013, 7:04 am

Bignuggs wrote:Laws get changed so much they get confused.  That's why a good solicitor/barrister is able to challenge the laws and win.
Well, try taking on the WA government.  I have been given some advice.  Unless you are a multi millionaire, don't do it.
A government, doesn't matter if its State or Federal, has tax payers resources at their disposal to fight you to your death.  And they will do everything they can to destroy you.  I've been told, they will take everything you own if you lose.  Do you want that  ??
It's public knowledge so there is nothing in this post that is false.
As far as I'm concerned, the current Laws contradict themselves and we are getting the run around to protect mining companies.  
That's WA for ya.
This is just my opinion, research it for ya selves.
I don't think it's limited to WA Cliff

Robert

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Topcat on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 6:06 am

Hi Cliff,
Been reading this thread with interest & agree with the statements posted so far.
The statement  by the DMP in my opinion is very ambiguous as several dictionaries give a varied interpretation of hand tools  but basically read the same. I found one that states:

"Hand Tool

Any of the implements used by craftsmen in manual operations, such as chopping, chiseling, sawing, filing, or forging. Complementary tools, often needed as auxiliaries to shaping tools, include such implements as the hammer for nailing and the vise for holding. A craftsman may also use instruments that facilitate accurate measurements: the rule, divider, square, and others. Power tools-usually hand-held, motor-powered implements such as the electric drill or electric saw-perform many of the old manual operations and as such may be considered hand tools."

So reading from that I would say that if you can hold an implement by hand & operate it then it is considered a hand tool.

Where they (the DMP) get you in the argument is the wording in their statement:
" “handheld” tools for the purpose of the Mining Act 1978 and associated regulations"

Also I have not heard of anyone being prosecuted for using any electrical operated hand tools to assist in prospecting.

Cheers

Ted


Last edited by Topcat on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : wording)

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Guest on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 10:28 am

I don't think anyone has been seen doing it Ted..and therefor hard to prove in court --your word against theres..

regards
oneday

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 6:18 pm

Hi Ted,

Here's the problem I have. I've scanned thru the mining act and associated regs, and I can't see anywhere, where it states a holder of a Miners Right cannot use "Powered Hand Held Tools".
Now I do say, I only scanned thru them and may have missed it. Even though it says "Hand Held" tools, I'm hoping someone can point to the clause that explicitly states "No Powered Tools".
I can't see how a black and decker hammer drill (powered with rechargeable battery packs) can be such a problem if all we are doing is drilling a few holes in cap rock to make it easier to chip it away.
I wouldn't dream of using a jackhammer but to me, it's just total madness that they expect us to use hammer and chisel.

cheers 
Cliff



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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Jack-Tar on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 8:17 pm

They have set a limit to how deep we can dig and how much we can take, so why is it so important to them how quick and how much easier it is for us to reach that depth?

Craig

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by AuHunter on Tue 29 Oct 2013, 6:36 am

Bignuggs wrote:I don't think I should have opened up this can of worms   lol! 
Yeah I think you may be right there. Sometimes grey areas can be better than black and white. Sometimes not I guess too. affraid the way I would look at it is you don't want to have them start a review process, you want our guys to do it once they have the numbers. Cheers

AuHunter


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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 8:05 pm

I think I'll stir the pot on this thread again  Razz   This is on WADMP.  
I'm not fossicking, I'm using a detector and I'm looking for gold, not used horse shoes or funny coloured rocks  Razz 

Hmmmmmmm Suspect   am I a Fossicker or a Prospector with a detector ?????  If DMP takes my money for applications to EL's,  What am I ??????


Miner's Rights

A Miner's Right allows the holder to prospect on Crown land and take and keep samples and specimens of any ore or material up to 20 kilograms. However, a Miner's Right does not authorise the holder to carry out mining operations.

Entry onto certain classes of Crown land is restricted (eg. within a 400 metre radius of a pastoral lessee's well), other than to gain access to other Crown land for the purpose of prospecting or marking out that other land.

The holder of a Miner's Right may also fossick* on Crown land, whether or not that land is held as a mining tenement, subject to the prior written consent of any occupier of that land and the mining tenement holder.

* "Fossick" means to search for, remove rock, ore or minerals other than gold or diamonds not exceeding 20 kilograms for a mineral collection, lapidary work or hobby interest by use of hand tools only (ie: mechanised equipment, metal detectors etc may not be used in fossicking).



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