Electric Jackhammers

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Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 3:55 pm

Now this will probably open up a can of worms but might be worth investigating.  After watching madmav and bluedog digging last weekend and seeing some Utube clips of guys with hammer and chisel, it got me thinking about the title of this topic.

Electric hand hammerdrills or small jackhammers are called "Hand Held" tools.  The WA DMP rules for Prospecting also state "Handheld".

Cat, I know you will jump in here and that's good.  I'd like to know what the "True" definition of handheld is under the WA Mining Act.  I think I might send an email to DMP for their interpretation.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by rogawilco on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 6:09 pm

mmm ,good subject Bignuggs,
I have had this convo with others before too.
Be interesting to see what the outcome is, as the debate included that using power tools might not be classed as "hand held". ya could chisel away with an electric jackhammer or/and use it to drill a long enough hole with extended or modified drill bits, and a bit of fert and diesel, a few volts sent down the hole then
"pop" a little hole to make the dig easier.
rw
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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 7:02 pm

Email sent to DMP tonite. Let's see where this goes. It'll be interesting.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Wed 11 Sep 2013, 9:23 pm

I've had no reply yet. They are probably thinking about it. From what I see, the Law is not clear.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Guest on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 7:08 am

According to the conditions of a Section 40E you are not permitted to use electric or hydraulically powered hand tools.

Robert

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by shorty on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 10:08 am

I see in the latest Gold gem and treasure the guys that found 371 ounces out of Cue have an electric jack hammer in the background of one of their photos
Chris
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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by martinjsto on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 10:31 am

I wonder what the OHS rules say regarding hand smashing out some material from hard rock as compared to using a jack hammer. I am sure that if any manual excavation is needed on a working site, for  example for a footing, that requiring chipping out rock on any mine or work site that OHS would not allow it to be done with a hammer and chisel. there are appropriate safety equipment and tools for a job and to say an electric jack hammer is not a hand tool seems stupid.  there are enough regulations that we follow that limits our ability to detect already, 2 mts of topsoil or rock does no damage to the big companies so why make it a dangerous job by forcing hammers and chisels only?. their logic has got me stuffed, and what of liability from injury from a flying piece of chisel? or smashed hands will the lease holder cover you, if the regs under 40e states no power tools then they are forcing hand tools and therefor are liable for injury? another can of worms.
this poor bugger had to leave it in the ground. is that fair?
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EDIT: just got off the phone to worksafe, they put me on to the DMP who ask me for a email stating my concerns. email sent asking about OHS conflict. waiting reply.


Last edited by martinjsto on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : follow up)
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RE: Electric jack hammers

Post by aussie18 on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 4:01 pm

from my understanding it is a definite no go, power tools in general.
I agree bloody stupid idea, and as for liability of lease holders in the case of a injury while using hammer and chisels, well that is opening a can of worms. in the couple of handfuls of application's to gain access to M and P lease's not 1 has given me permission to enter because off the risk off injury factor even though I have a personal and public liability insurance in place. no liability should be placed on lease holders, enter at own risk in my humble opinion. it's hard enough to get on any decent ground already and if that matter get's pushed well will there be anywhere for us to go legally?? I don't think so.
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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by martinjsto on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 4:33 pm

i agree Jase, it will open a can of worms that will hinder getting on to areas and that is hard enough anyway. the lease holders should not be held liable and the prospector should not be forced to use inadequate tools for the job he/she is allowed to do. we are not talking about a dozer or scraper but a hand held jack hammer and a gen set for a small hole. i dont have or use a jackhammer just a pick and shovel and chisel and hammer. silly rule I think

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 8:41 pm

I'm still waiting for an answer from DMP but the Mining Act of 1978, part 111A, Miners Right and Related Permits, makes no mention of electric hand tools.
It does state,

40D. Authorisation under miner’s right
(1) Subject to this Act the holder of a miner’s right is authorised to do all or any of the following things —
(a) pass and repass over Crown land or conservation land with such employees and agents, vehicles, machinery and equipment as may be necessary or expedient for the purpose of prospecting and marking out any land which may be made the subject of an application for a mining tenement;


(2) Every miner’s right is to be regarded as having been issued subject to the conditions that the holder of the miner’s right or any other person acting in the exercise or purported exercise of an authorisation conferred or alleged to be conferred by subsection (1) —
(a) must not, on conservation land, do any of the things referred to in that subsection unless authorised to do so under the Conservation and Land Management Act 1984; and
(b) must not use explosives or tools, other than tools prescribed for the purposes of this paragraph or hand tools; and
(c) must cause to be filled in or otherwise made safe —
(i) all holes, pits, trenches and other disturbances on the surface of the land which were made by the person while acting in the exercise or purported exercise of the authorisation and which are likely to endanger the safety of any person or animal; and

(6) In addition to any conditions that may be imposed under subsection (5) every permit is to be regarded as having been issued subject to conditions that the holder or each holder (in the case of joint holders) —
(a) must not use explosives or tools, other than hand tools, on the land the subject of the permit; and


I can only suggest everyone has a good read of the Mining Act.  I may have missed something or only have selective reading ability.
My argument is, "what is the legal definition of hand tools".  I have a suspicion, that they didn't think this would ever raise it's ugly head and we would only resort to swinging a pick or using a hammer and chisel.
But Hand tools now range from rechargeable drills to small jackhammers, crowbars, shovels etc.  
I'll be cheeky and say, "hand tools" could also be a knife, fork or spoon.

cheers
Cliff

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Shelby23 on Fri 13 Sep 2013, 6:18 am

Who would know if a Black Bear is crapping in the woods?
WHO follows every person around remote bush checking how you dig your targets out.
Contempt is flowing, if Electric Hammers are displayed on Gold Detecting video clips.
Electric Hammers and Generator's are cheap as ever, on Ebay.
The older Prospectors need all the help they can get to save there old backs.
I would also be so bold as to suggest that all gold detector vehicles should have a Backhoe attachment on the back of them.
Regards Neale

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Guest on Fri 13 Sep 2013, 6:50 am

Has anyone heard of or know of someone being prosecuted for using powered hand tools or at least having them confiscated?

Cliff, if you are prospecting/detecting under the issuance of a 40E then the unpowered ruling is in effect.
I can't see why it would only apply to a 40E and not to any other circumstance. I don't agree with it either.

Robert

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Fri 13 Sep 2013, 7:43 am

I agree with what you are saying about the 40E Robert but it is a mystery to me why it isn't stated in the Mining Act.
It's probably the reason I can't get an answer to my question from DMP.
And I also agree if detectorists were allowed to use powered tools, all hell would break loose.

Cliff

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Fri 13 Sep 2013, 5:57 pm

I finally got an answer from DMP.  It's not what I was hoping for so now I'm pondering my next step  lol! 
maybe I should just give up now.
So here it is.

In response to your enquiry I can advise that “handheld” tools for the purpose of the Mining Act 1978 and associated regulations are “any tool not operated by mechanical means”.  For example, a pick or a shovel would be considered handheld tools.  Therefore, electric hammer drills and electric jackhammers would be considered as mechanised tools.

cheers
Cliff

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by AuHunter on Sun 22 Sep 2013, 6:26 pm

Bignuggs wrote:I agree with what you are saying about the 40E Robert but it is a mystery to me why it isn't stated in the Mining Act.
It's probably the reason I can't get an answer to my question from DMP.
And I also agree if detectorists were allowed to use powered tools, all hell would break loose.

Cliff
Hi bignuggs, I take your being sarcastic when you say all hell would break loose?

Also if they can't be used does that also mean they can't be in the car? I often keep tools on me. I think in NSW you can't even drive through a NP with a detector. I think it's due to men having to many soy products. :wtf im starting to think we are a bunch of whipped serfs. Our political masters run amock and we have to deal with the red tape. Whatever happened to the Aussie spirit. I have to go as the minister of finance and war has brought me over the vacuum. l;wfh 

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Inhere on Tue 24 Sep 2013, 5:21 pm

Bignuggs wrote:I finally got an answer from DMP.  It's not what I was hoping for so now I'm pondering my next step  lol! 
maybe I should just give up now.  
So here it is.

In response to your enquiry I can advise that “handheld” tools for the purpose of the Mining Act 1978 and associated regulations are “any tool not operated by mechanical means”.  For example, a pick or a shovel would be considered handheld tools.  Therefore, electric hammer drills and electric jackhammers would be considered as mechanised tools.

cheers
Cliff
I had a wait to see a quack, so rather than read election crap, I bought this months GG&T, opened it to find a couple of guy's
had found a rich bit of reef. The bloody dills had an electric jackhammer, clearly showing on the side of the hole.Suspect affraid 
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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Guest on Thu 26 Sep 2013, 12:48 am

u certainly leave yourself open when u take a photo of ya mate and theres a jack hammer in the background--geez Heello..
then again maybe they had a POW-P to work the area--we don't know the full extent of the exercise but one can only hope that everything was sweet.

regards
oneday

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by rogawilco on Thu 26 Sep 2013, 8:41 pm

Hi guys,
My good buddy and prospecting partner called me last nite, excited as he had dug a 700mm hole down to the cap rock and still had the same signal, then gave up and filled it in until later on. He needs my help to dig more deeper as the blisters gave him to much greif. I asked if he took a sample to pan, and he said "oh nah forgot about that". He may well be on to something or not. But to be able to use a jackhammer type tool to save us the time and pain staking ways of old would surely help us and future prospectors succeed in help the discovery process. Hopefully one day before too long these rules can be modified to keep the insentive to further investigate a target will come.
Rw
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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Inhere on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 6:50 am

oneday monday wrote:u certainly leave yourself open when u take a photo of ya mate and theres a jack hammer in the background--geez Heello..
then again maybe they had a POW-P to work the area--we don't know the full extent of the exercise but one can only hope that everything was sweet.

regards
oneday
Hope you are right oneday, it would be a bastard to find all that gold, and then, a lot of problems you don't need.
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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by martinjsto on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 9:28 am

the photo is very suggestive of their methods but not proof, just because you see a jack hammer in a pic next to a hole dosnt mean you actually used it, (most likely they did I know but not absolute proof) maybe it was out ready in case but never used. you could find a nugget next to a old abandoned dozer or old mining machinery, dosnt prove you used it to find or remove the nugget... i think you would actually have to be caught using it to have possessions taken under the crimes act. mind you, you do yourself no favors and risk everything acting irresponsibly and illegally. better to stick to the rules and keep everything you find..

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 11:48 am

Bignuggs wrote:I finally got an answer from DMP.  It's not what I was hoping for so now I'm pondering my next step  lol! 
maybe I should just give up now.  
So here it is.

In response to your enquiry I can advise that “handheld” tools for the purpose of the Mining Act 1978 and associated regulations are “any tool not operated by mechanical means”.  For example, a pick or a shovel would be considered handheld tools.  Therefore, electric hammer drills and electric jackhammers would be considered as mechanised tools.

cheers
Cliff
Maybe I should push my luck with DMP or even send a letter to the State Solicitors Office.  This section from the Mining Act has me asking the question, "Why can't we use a drill or small jack hammer" ?

40D. Authorisation under miner’s right
(1) Subject to this Act the holder of a miner’s right is authorised to do all or any of the following things —
(a) pass and repass over Crown land or conservation land with such employees and agents, vehicles, machinery and equipment as may be necessary or expedient for the purpose of prospecting and marking out any land which may be made the subject of an application for a mining tenement;


a 40E is a different kettle of fish as the ground has already been claimed but if you are on vacant Crown Land, then why not.


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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by martinjsto on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 12:38 pm

Quote " “any tool not operated by mechanical means”. For example, a pick or a shovel would be considered handheld tools. Therefore, electric hammer drills and electric jackhammers would be considered as mechanised tools."

even this statement is very ambiguous.
the statement "any tool not operated by mechanical means" is the gist of it, the example is a poor representation of the clause.
how can a hand held jack hammer be classed as mechanical operated when clearly the operator is a man not a machine? it could be powered by the sun and that energy is free for all to use. I believe "General Hercules" is also querying the exact meaning of the rule for a solar powered dryblower.
i wonder if this has been tried in court
maybe the president will be set with these fellows, good time to have the APLA with you.

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by shorty on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 12:52 pm

Bignuggs wrote:
Bignuggs wrote:I finally got an answer from DMP.  It's not what I was hoping for so now I'm pondering my next step  lol! 
maybe I should just give up now.  
So here it is.

In response to your enquiry I can advise that “handheld” tools for the purpose of the Mining Act 1978 and associated regulations are “any tool not operated by mechanical means”.  For example, a pick or a shovel would be considered handheld tools.  Therefore, electric hammer drills and electric jackhammers would be considered as mechanised tools.

cheers
Cliff
Maybe I should push my luck with DMP or even send a letter to the State Solicitors Office.  This section from the Mining Act has me asking the question, "Why can't we use a drill or small jack hammer" ?

40D. Authorisation under miner’s right
(1) Subject to this Act the holder of a miner’s right is authorised to do all or any of the following things —
(a) pass and repass over Crown land or conservation land with such employees and agents, vehicles, machinery and equipment as may be necessary or expedient for the purpose of prospecting and marking out any land which may be made the subject of an application for a mining tenement;


a 40E is a different kettle of fish as the ground has already been claimed but if you are on vacant Crown Land, then why not.

A 40e isn't really any different as you have the right to excavate to a depth of two metres and remove up to 20 kilo,s of samples.
My 20 cents worth.
Chris
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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Flying kiwi on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 3:11 pm

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hey cliff

mining regulations 1981, page 11 covers it pretty well unfortunately  Evil or Very Mad 

it would be a sad sack to ping you for using a kanga to break a few nugs out of the cap rock, i am sure a bit of discression goes a long way (i.e. dont put pics in GGT with a breaker next to your hole Shocked )

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Re: Electric Jackhammers

Post by Bignuggs on Sun 29 Sep 2013, 3:53 pm

I agree with what page 11 states in regard to 40E's. Now that I've got people reading the Mining Act, what does it say about vacant crown land ? Get ya thinking caps on. I'm not being rude but think outside of the box. Laws can be challenged as they are always written and worded wrong.
It can't be the same. I wouldn't dream of screwing it up for everyone but there has to be an allowance somewhere or we are truly losing our rights to the exclusion of big mining.
I should be allowed to use "mechanized or powered" tools on free Crown Land. I wouldn't do it on granted claims.

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